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27 May 2007

ah men! more or less, it's molest

When does touching another (gay) man constitute molest? Columnist Jonathan Zhang relates an incident that had occurred at his workplace where he was touched inappropriately and wonders what could, or should he have done about it.

When I signed up for a career in nursing, I was anticipating days revolving around life saving with defibrillator pads, syringes and hot doctors. Of course, they conveniently forgot to mention the constant work stress, relatives who berate you for no reason and patients who treat you like crap despite all the care that you provide them. Now I can safely add another to the list: molest. It was with this sentiment that I was caught off guard when a patient got a good 'grasp' of what the family treasures were like two weeks ago.

'Molest' as defined by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary is 'to make annoying sexual advances to'. In my case, I can assure you there were sexual advances. However, I choose not to see it as something annoying or irritating. Instead of making it a very negative experience, why not turn it around into one that's positive? Like an Aesop's fable, I take it that my encounter has a moral behind it, albeit questionable. But more on that later. Unless you consider the patient to be an animal of sorts, the only difference between this tale and Aesop's would be that none were harmed or even involved here.

It all began on one of the busy morning shifts when everyone in the ward was busy rendering assistance to the patients under their charge. It was with this intent to help, that I answered a call bell that was beeping away from the male toilet. Apparently, this fifty-plus guy whom I have never taken care of before had just had a shower on his own. I assumed that he had diabetic limb problems given that his foot had a dressing and a transparent plastic bag wrapped and scotch-taped over it.

So there he was butt naked, wet and a tad on the saggy side. From his well-defined features, you could tell that he was quite the hot guy during his younger days. Toweling him, we made small talk in a mix of mandarin and the Chinese dialect of Hokkien. Now in all my work experience, most of the male patients I take care of are a bunch of straight and married men. They try to avoid touching the male nurse as much as possible, which I assume is a sensible straight guy thing. This one however, helped himself to the touching like it was a free buffet. While helping him to put on his shirt, he grabbed my biceps in the most unnatural of ways and exclaimed, "Wah You've got such strong arms!" I gave him a cursory reply about going to the gym and weightlifting. While assisting him in moving over from the shower chair to the commode (a wheelchair meant for taking patients to the toilet), he suddenly reached out for my arms and started inspecting it like a palm-reader would.

"Really you've got such big veins!"

Compliments, I swear, despite them being very untrue, can get you anywhere. His flattering remarks in this case, reached deep down into my pants. My loins, being (literally) the narcissistic prick that it was, decided to rise to the occasion at that very moment. Wheeling the patient back from the toilet, I started cursing the hospital for supplying the male nurses with such baggy pants. While they provide comfort when it comes to movement, they not very practical when it comes to the concealing of the excited vital organs. I tried to administer some public censorship by sticking as close to the backrest of the commode as I possibly could. Not helping however, was that it was a small backrest and practically half of the bulge was poking into the patient's back.

I think the patient noticed because it was really an awkward moment when I helped move him back into his bed. This time, he wrapped himself around my waist when I lifted him from the commode. The alarms in my head were clanging away because there was something really amiss going on here. The next bit however, made me lose my cool.

I was trying to unwrap the plastic on his foot, tearing off the tape bit by bit. There we were, his foot precariously placed on my thigh, trying to avoid any contact with whatever was going on in my pants. I think he was trying to figure out something to break the ice because his next line was really irrelevant.

"Wah! Your pants are so big!"

That technically gave him an excuse to feel the fabric of my work wear. And THAT was when he felt the bulge. He went on to grab the whole package which consisted of both the royal scepter and the crown jewels. Instinctively, I brushed his hand off and stood up, albeit a little hunched. I was caught in a dilemma. I couldn't scream and shout and scold the patient because I was not exactly guilt-free at all. On the other hand, if I didn't say something, it would just make further encounters with this particular patient very awkward. So I decided to take the neutral ground. I told the patient in extremely broken and panicky Hokkien:

"Hey uncle. Please don't touch me again. You have yours and I have mine. So you touch yours, and I'll touch mine. Okay?"

I quickly wheeled the commode out, not even bothering to listen to his reply.

Later in the afternoon, I told one of my colleagues what had happened in the toilet over a cigarette at the hospital roof. Her reaction was the exact definition of 'scandalised'. You could see her pupils enlarging and glistening with every word that I fell out of my mouth. Being the gossip queen that she was, she spread the exciting news like an STD. By the end of the shift, practically the whole ward knew except for my supervisors. Suddenly, colleagues were coming up to me to encourage me to report to the supervisors regarding this matter.

But here's the big moral question: So what if I tell them and I get my 'revenge' for this little bit of sexual harassment? What good does it do to me or even the patient for that matter? It's not like there's a monetary reward involved each time a patient touches me inappropriately. And besides, I did my politically-correct part by telling the patient off so that the chances of such an incident occurring again are somewhat diminished. It was thus, that I decided not to pursue the matter.

The next day, the colleague with the glistening eyes came up to me with an excited look to inform me that 'your molester is discharging from the hospital today'. To my surprise, his entire family consisting of heartlander wife and filial adult son turned up to bring him home. An even bigger surprise would be the fact that he was actually able to hobble around by himself just before he went home. But the biggest surprise of all was that he managed to get one last feel of me when he was about to leave the ward. He put his hand on my shoulder which traveled all the way down to the butt. Glistening eyes colleague saw what happened and was laughing out so loud that her petite-sized frame was shaking from the inside.

I didn't bother with retorts or kung-fu moves. I just shrugged it off and gave her a miserable 'what to do?' look. When I recounted the story with a gay friend of mine, he shrugged it off like me too. "Really, what can you do?" he said. And it's true when I look at it from hindsight. If I were to make a big hoo-hah over the whole issue, it would involve loads of paper work, explaining and interviews. So much red tape, just to get some form of revenge and a problem resolved.

"Just take it at face value. Take it as a form of... charity. You're giving back to the less fortunate what they once used to have. In this case, it's your youth!"

Molest as a form of charity? That's the questionable moral of this story. That perhaps getting felt up by a total stranger never did anyone any harm. And so why kick up a big fuss over it which would not bring any great returns back, but rather more trouble and many other issues to tag along with it?

After all, it was more or less, just molest.

Jonathan Zhang, 22, has been gay for eight years and a nurse for four. You can read the combined average of the above in his blog at www.spankthemalenurse.blogspot.com. Ah Men! will be updated every other Sunday.

Reader's Comments

Comment #1 was deleted by its author
2. 2007-05-26 23:56  
Molestation ? Sorry, Jonno -- it doesn't read like a case of molestation. An old, naked man flattered you (big veins ?-- is that code for something ?) YOU got a hard-on, and poked it in his back. No wonder he wanted a closer grip on things. The patient could just as easily have complained about inappropriate sexual behaviour on your part, if you had decided to take the matter to your superiors.
3. 2007-05-27 01:48  
Hmm...yes..i agree...what can you do? Raising it up to superiors will just make matter worse. I feel pityful for that pateint who is sexually deprived for years and he eventually can find some 'release' in a hospital.

Once I was at a salon for a haircut and my hairstylist pressed his abs onto the back of my head when touching up on my hair! Is there a need to do so? I perceive it as molest...by the way he is just married and in good shape. Don't tell me he is a deprived gay seeking 'release' in a hair salon!
4. 2007-05-27 10:16  
just let it go. wish rest in peace
Comment #5 was deleted by its author
6. 2007-05-27 11:16  
Dear Jonathan,
i kind of agreed with Kaiviti.
you wouldn't have been molested if you hadn't poked his backside :P.
I know sometimes it's difficult to control but always remind yourself of the professionalism will definitely help.
7. 2007-05-27 11:34  
"Jonathan Zhang, 22, has been gay for eight years and a nurse for four"

What does this mean exactly? Jon decided to "become gay" 8 yrs ago? Or this arrived naturally with puberty when he was 14? Or did he only "find out" he was gay 8 yrs ago? In which case he was gay all along but never knew it?

Puhleasssse people. This one has been flogged so many times but we never seem to learn do we? WE ARE BORN GAY! Just like breeders are born breeders: they don't suddenly decide one day "I'm gonna be straight". Its not something we can switch on or off. However there are plenty of guys out there who don't yet know they are gay and assume they are straight until they cum across the Fridae website! You would expect of all people the editors at Fridae to know better now wouldn't you...
8. 2007-05-27 12:54  
It is difficult to prove when your profession involves touching another man, as it is his words against your words. But as professional nurse, I am sure you will not bother to make a complaint as patient often is ovewhelmed with physical, psychoscial and emotional problems...

I am sure it also happens to female nurses but many times such incidents are handled professionally.

I am sure more such incidents are under-reported but become gossips as nurses have more noble perspective.
Comment #9 was deleted by its author
10. 2007-05-27 14:08  
I completely disagree with zackxx.

A baby is born "homosexual" no more than a baby is born "hetersexual". Babies are not sexual. Sexuality does not develop until puberty.

Much less "gay", which is not just a sexuality issue, but also an identity, a cultural norm, and (usually) a whole package of psychosocial, and normative behaviors all rolled into one.

So if you've only been "gay" for 1 day or 8 years, more power to that person. Being "gay" has a lot more to do with acceptance of one's identity as it has with fucking someone from the same sex (which babies don't do).

I would have expected a 42 year old man, presumably born and bred in the West to at least have a more in depth understanding of such a simple and fundamental issue. First time you mentioned it, I brushed it off as ignorance, second time you do it, you become a heckler and bring your sorry self into disrepute.

If you have time this lazy Sunday, go attack the Christian Fundamentalists, not pick on your own kind.
11. 2007-05-27 15:50  
Maybe it means he's "out of the closet" for 8 years... why argue on such minor things?

homosexual o not?.. i believe it's destinied
but our future is in our hand
how we shape it or change it....
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13. 2007-05-27 17:36  
Totally agree with Kaiviti/Shaun-sg. Its a little unreasonable for you to complain about this patient grabbing your crotch when you readily admit that you did not challenge his advances, and then allowed your erection to rub against him. As someone else who works in healthcare, I always work on the premise that if a patient hits on me - I tell them immediately that it is inappropriate, and if for some weird reason I ever got a hardon as a result - I would definitely excuse myself and come back when I was composed and can be more professional!
14. 2007-05-27 17:41  
Face it Jon, you were a cockteaser.
15. 2007-05-27 17:43  
Patients have been groping nurses for as long as there have been nurses. The professional nurses with whom I've been aquainted over the years are well- trained, empathetic and know how to handle incidents like these without turning them into law suits, public embarassments for patients, hospital gossip, or fodder for website gossip. Consider yourself blessed that you're worth the grope...for sure, someday in the not-so-distant future, YOU'LL be the one in the hospital bed or on the toilet groping a young male nurse. Firstly: the noun is "MOLESTATION". The verb is, "MOLEST". It would be refreshing to be exposed to proper grammer, so here's a friendly word of advice: correct your grammer (if not by yourself, then by your editors) prior to publication if you're ever planning to become a legitimate, professional, world-class writer. Secondly, I imagine had the "molester in question" been a 21 year-old hottie with 48 inch chest, 28 inch waist, six-pack hard as steel and a 8 inch dong, you'd be writing an entirely different diary entry about how guilty you feel about jumping into his electronic bed and throwing up your legs like a compass pointing north.....
16. 2007-05-27 17:47  
And I agree with Screwdriver..you were a cock-tease....recently broken up with your bf, in need of some physical reassurance, and seeking justification or rationalization for your actions on the part of your reading audience....quite normal behavior for a young gay man, considering your occupation, and for one "on the rebound".
17. 2007-05-27 21:01  
Good point though!

Why make a fuss about such little and pointless things? Why bother to make life hard for yourself and others? The ones who make a fuss are those looking for any type of attention...
18. 2007-05-27 22:37  
Haha... i think it's a very fun article...

hey at least he's honest about it on the part where he had an erection. I can't help smiling and wondering what it was like when his colleagues saw his butt being groped. If i was there to witness it, i would have just burst out laughing.

I'm sure some of us have had experiences like this.

I had mentioned in my earlier blog where this man out of no where approached me and started asking questions whether i go to gym. He then asked me if i would be interested to do some sort of wrestling exercise with him...
ps. was in a much better shape a few years ago

whenever i thought about it... haha... that's funny...

sometimes unusual things like these can spice up our life and we can always look back and laugh at it.

but hey... don't start groping people thinking that you'll be part of someone's memory! cheers :)
19. 2007-05-27 22:54  
Actually I think it's quite a fun article , too. And pretty well written -- despite the small problem with verbs and nouns. Even though Jonathan obviously got quite excited by his experience with "molestation", he knew it was wrong for the patient to carry it further -- hence this whole debate. Mind you, if I was ill in hospital and a 22 y o nurse got a hard on because I'd complimented him on his biceps and big veins -- I might grab for glory too. Well, perhaps not grab .. but you know what I mean. Haa
20. 2007-05-27 23:15  
I agree with the comment from 'playboy'.

Btw, caesar2003, its GRAMMAR... not grammer!!

Check ur own before u check on others ok babe. Oh, one more thing, take a chill pill before u write any comment k. U need one.

21. 2007-05-28 00:08  
THANK YOU, Caeser for correcting the grammatical issue -- it was driving me nuts. Secondly, thank you for pointing out how the situation would be very different if the patient were a young hottie.

I'm pretty sure if a cute nurse had his pecker drilling into my back, I might assume he wouldn't mind a little groping either.

Oh, and IcEMaN84, it should be "it's", not "its".
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23. 2007-05-28 08:25  
really Matthew?
i guess it depends on how comfortable u r with ur sexuality. when i was in hospital in Australia, and when the male nurses were preparing me for an x-ray, they did not bother to ask me permission, jus started ripping off my pants ... cos that was where the injury was - in the hip.
then the next morning when they were prepping me for surgery, they jus opened up the robe and started sponging me and shaving me ... i got hard and he smiled and even gave me a shake or 2 on my dick ... i mean when u r in that position (meaning me), how else can u react ... and i assume, the male nurse was happy that he had that reaction on me cos from where i was looking, he had a sly smile and a hardon in his pants ... and it was summer, so the male nurses were were short shorts (more like hot pants).
all i can say is ... it takes 2 to tango ... and the male nurses cannot help it if the patient is insistent, and vice versa, the patient cannot help it if the male nurse is one hot piece of man meat ... jus enjoy it JonJon ... unless u r seriously against it, then make a report ... if not, take it as a flattery ... if the guy is hot.
24. 2007-05-28 09:26  

You really are the HOT male nurse every gay man dreams of having and really I have never been to a hospital for any treatments (Knock On Wood - Yours I hope!)
But if I know you'd be my ward nurse hell I'd break my leg just to get you to look after me!

Come on buddy, think of it as charity. When we are old and wrinkled we'd also hope to get a piece of hottie meat even if its just for a cheap thrill!

25. 2007-05-28 09:40  
Molest...hrmm....i guess we can consider that a molest if a guy whom we dun desire touch up at partof our body that we dun want to...hehe

Well, I am sure at least once in our life time, someone in the club or disco even pinched or touch your bum, if a handsome did it, u will smile and maybe say hello, if an ulgy uncle did it, u will feel angry....haha....

So wat is really molest for us? hehe
26. 2007-05-28 11:44  
Jonah ... Jonah ... Jonah ...
You've tried so hard to make it sex and the hospital ward, haven't u?
Well, as Simon would say, OK for the performance but bad in integrity. :P
As someone who easily gets turned on (meaning a groin rising to the occasion, borrowing ur term), sometimes at inappropiate moments and worse - by undesired/unexpected person/s (wink wink), I really understand your problem at the beginning.
Then comes the second part: the after incident. Well, it just shows how a genuine drama queen you are, by telling your excitement ... oops sorry your incident to a colleaque (Btw, did u remember to tell bout the rising to the occasion part, or u just conviniently forgot about telling it?). Actually it kinda queer as folk, but why you should be so michael about it, you should be more like brian, jumped on the bed, hopped into whatever there to hop in, and got done and over with it ...
hehehehe, sorry my moral is more corrupted than I think, so just ignore my comment :P

27. 2007-05-28 12:13  
Molestation? Give me a break! The nurse had a damned erection and initiated the first act of "molestation". I quote "Not helping however, was that it was a small backrest and practically half of the bulge was poking into the patient's back.

I think the patient noticed because it was really an awkward moment when I helped move him back into his bed."

Other than that it was quite a funny article.
28. 2007-05-28 12:50  
All these issues about sexual advances and molestation at the work place are sometimes so trivial and self-serving. While some are really disturbing and overboard, I believe many are just trying to flatter themselves. Take it from the brighter side honey - you should be glad someone is paying attention to your looks! You should be worried if no one gives a damn! So if you prefer to go unnoticed, stop going to the gym or getting male cosmetics! Don't even style your hair.
Comment #29 was deleted by its author
30. 2007-05-28 13:35  
i find it interesting that you use red tape and extra paper work to excuse the possible reasons for reporting...and even more interesting that you mention the lack of monetary incentives as another excuse

nonetheless...molestation is a state of mind...now, having the stated definition of 'molest' in mind, was your reproductive organ biomechanically responding to your annoyance OR the excitement towards the sexual advances?

if annoyance, in my opinion, that is one strange penis reaction, ^_^

if excitement, than it shouldn't be molestation, given the definition... should it?. well if it is still molestation...then maybe the definition should be changed to "to make exciting sexual advances to" >.< which would just make no sense

so, maybe you were excited by the presence of a sexual advancement but you were annoyed by the societal anomaly of being excited by a sexual advancement from an elderly...if that's the case, is it still molestation? i think not.
31. 2007-05-28 13:44  
Honey, molestation is defined only if you DO NOT welcome the sexual advances- at any cost - of said offender- & he persists. If it happened for real, u would not think it's so funny- in fact, you''ll be mighty scared of what he'd do next, i tell ya.
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35. 2007-05-28 15:47  
yeah, i would be scared and not have an erection while rejecting all the non-exciting sexual advances...i know this because I've been there...but then again we all respond differently to things which makes life an interesting discussion

in response to zackxx and to extend what playboy has mentioned

i think behavior does play a role in identity as well

if being gay is like being a pianist then

a) if you don't know what a pianist is, it's likely that you've not played the piano and therefore not a pianist

b) if you believe that you are a pianist, and fantasize about being a pianist but never ever played the piano, then you are not a pianist yet! though you might have piano tendencies :)

c) sometimes you find the piano and you're naturally great at it... and sometimes your parents encourage it...sometimes they don't...but i heard for those that do, they start as early as 3...and they are fabulous by 7...but i would recommend duets at an older age :D

d) at times playing the piano is such a 'sin' and all you can do is watch pianist play duets late at night when the spouse of the other sex is sleeping...or visit secluded places to practice your piano ...like at the bathhouse and even parks ^o^

e) at times people just naturally don't play piano or dislike playing piano but they do it anyways because sean cody and corbin fisher said it's awesome!!! so that pianists and aspiring pianists and closet pianists can watch it

f) it's sad but at times people dislike pianists because they can't be one and they take it out on pianists

g) it's even sadder but at times people hate pianists because they were told to hate pianists

so, i guess i'm saying that you only have gay tendencies until you have gay sex, and virgin gays that masturbate are gay coz honestly they're men and touching a penis while thinking of penises. what i don't get are straight virgins that play with their penises but think of what they don't have. lol

but whatever your instrument, play it proud!!!
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Comment #37 was deleted by its author
38. 2007-05-28 23:50  
Unfortunately, our dick sometime is not so obedient. It just stand up sometime and show off by its own without our approval. So, I don't totally agree that being hard is a welcoming signal.
By the way, the patience is taking advantage of Jon at his working hour and have some fun while his family is away. The thing is, this kind of fun is not part of the nursing service package nor it is part of Jon's job description. Of course, Jon felt disrespect and being taken advantage of.
I would rather warn the molestor early rather wait until the end. Just tie his hands on the wheel chair (:-P I'm just kidding).....
39. 2007-05-28 23:59  
Have you not remember what you've learnt in law and ethics? Shouldn't you report what is deem right to you, be it the doer is a criminal or a person in need? Incidents as such left unspoken, then the purpose of the poster hanging in your ward regarding client abusing HCWs serve no purposes. Unless, you'd enjoyed that tiny bit of it after all..
Please don't be a intrigant and admend this profession with "rectal tube insertion by hot macho nurse" porns or any of those uniform fetish. This will be the last thing we want to log on to RMS.
People out there, don't involve a profession so pure and innocent into your bed time fetish. TQ.

FYI. those pants can be exchange at MMD. No memo needed for those :)

Nurses Rule!
40. 2007-05-29 00:39  
Who is this Jonathan? He writes so well AND he's so sexy-cute. That poor Uncle was probably straight all his life until he met Jonathan and finds himself groping another man.

Great writing and interesting viewpoints on his blog too, I had a great time reading it.

So Jonathan, do you have a fridae profile? If not, here's a heart from me anyhow. :-)
41. 2007-05-29 08:21  
Not saying groping is right, but it has happened to me a few times and I either tell them not to do it or else put up with it that time and leave it at that. It depends on the context (for example, in a gay bathhouse, groping is generally accepted--if you're not interested you just push their hand away and they go on to the next candidate).

This kind of misunderstanding (attraction, not groping) has happened to me in the theatre. We exchange a few friendly words before the programme, the lights go down, after a time their knee touches mine, after a time their knee moves away, after a time I touch their knee with mine and move it away, the cycle repeats, I press their knee with mine, they move their knees to the other side and act dao. Oops! They were just trying to be comfortable, not play kneesies. Eventually, their knee touches mine again, they realize where I got the idea they were interested, and they're friendly again.

In your case, he complemented you, you were flattered, picha lobang, he misunderstood, you corrected him. No intentional molest at this point (though I can certainly understand your being uncomfortable with it). If he corrected his behaviour, it's probably worth forgiving him at this point, but accepting that it was unpleasant for you. I think your correction of his behaviour was mature and appropriate.

Now, his groping your butt when he was leaving, that was molest, as you had already corrected his misunderstanding.
42. 2007-05-29 08:30  
As to paperwork vs molest, I wish the other posters would lighten up on you. It is entirely appropriate to weigh your reaction against the size of the offense, and you did that at a level of accuracy and appropriateness that some guys 3 times your age haven't mastered yet.

You need to feel safe in your workplace; at the same time you are almost certainly right that if you formally filed, this would have been blown up out of proportion. It's possible to say what this guy did was wrong and at the same time say you don't have to go after him with a vengeance.

And everyone gossips at work. It's part of the work environment.

Anyway, you handled it well and probably have a successful nursing career ahead of you.
43. 2007-05-29 08:42  
indeed molest can be charity, in the positive view. however i do believe you did enjoyed his molestation to some extend since he was given a second chance to feel you up. =) Or were you trying to prove a point to your colleagues?
44. 2007-05-29 09:28  
Dear Jonathan.

If you were in a bar and this happened, you would accept it as a compliment and an invitation.

From this older guy, it is a compliment and an admiration for a good looking younger man.

His wife and son and not even relevant to the discussion. Being married is not an impediment to being gay.

You handled the situation well and even got a bit of a thrill out of it for yourself. Your body certainly accepted the compliment from a man who you have already described as good looking.

A professional cannot mix work with pleasure. But there is nothing to stop you being nice (with the limits you imposed) to someone who did turn you on.

Good luck for the future. You handled this well.
45. 2007-05-29 13:01  
"Jonathan Zhang, 22, has been gay for eight years and a nurse for four."

Are the editors in this room 120 years old?
How many times do gay people have to hear crap like "Jonathan Zhang has been gay for 8 years???"
We are BORN GAY, you idiots!
This makes me furious and you still insist on your uneducated, illiterate labels. You act like brainless cavemen trapped inside a mountain.
I would expect something like that to come out of my old aunt Mary's mouth(she's nearly 85) because she still thinks gays people can be cured with shock treatments!

You think this is a small matter, right? WRONG!
Do you think gay people need further programming to indicate that they can change their orientation by "not becoming gay" after 8 years, also???
Where do you people come from? Are you sleeping with Jerry Falwell's remains?
I can't believe I actually paid for a stupid membership on this pathetic antiquated cesspool.
You should hire some editors who can get their facts "straight" and stop labeling us as changeable defective people!
I can't believe other gay people are putting me down!
I resent this. I think it is time I demand my money back from you people because of the idiotic homophobia you force on your own people.
I will never pay for this site again and I encourage people to complain about this shitty labeling routine the Fridae editors have constantly shoved down our gay throats.
I like a lot of things shoved down my throat, baby, but homophobic remarks from other gay people is not one of them!!!
46. 2007-05-29 14:31  
yraen: There is some disagreement in the gay community whether the patient's behaviour would be acceptable in a bar. Some gays feel it is okay to grope someone you are attracted to, some do not. I can tell you that while this gay is somewhat accepting of groping--that's "somewhat"--if I am not already interested in getting into your pants it will actually hurt your chances of scoring with me. I much prefer someone who can charm me with their conversation, and such a person has a much better chance of getting into my pants. If you're simply interested in impressing me with your lack of respect for other people's boundaries, you've done a very effective job, but that's not the sort of person I want to go to bed with.

Bathhouse is a different story, grope lah, not a big deal.

makethebest: This is exactly what I am talking about in terms of scale of response. You are right to bring up this matter of terminology. Certainly "has been actively [or out as] gay for 8 years" or "acknowledged [or became aware of] his gayness 8 years ago" would read better and be more accurate. But when you start "yelling" I start tuning you out. What you are saying is important, and it is also important that people listen.
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49. 2007-05-29 14:43  
it is not a flower until the bud blooms
the bud is not a flower eventhough it is genetically predisposed to be a flower because it doesn't function as a flower
maybe Jonathan bloomed when he was 14

or better still maybe Jonathan or Fridae should clarify the
"Jonathan Zhang, 22, has been gay for eight years and a nurse for four." statement.
50. 2007-05-29 14:56  

scroll down and read my reply to zackwhatever who shared your same tirade. don't want to waste my breath repeating everything again.

unless you were born fucking other male babies (or feeling a sexual desire for them), you were not gay or homosexual until you hit puberty.
51. 2007-05-29 15:01  
oh, and makethebest

Go away. I just re-read your tirade, and let me guess - you've obviously just come out of your closet, considering the rainbow-flag thumper you are. Born-again gays are just as bad as born-again Christians - you feel you have to prove everything to the world, and are so insecure in your own identity that any notion that might threaten or question your weak foundation has to be dispelled with loud proclamations of absolute bullshit.

I think Fridae should ban people like you. But I think they prefer freedom of speech. If it were left to me, I wouldn't be so kind.

You're really as bad as your 85 yo aunt Mary - just the other extreme.
52. 2007-05-29 15:40  
Molest? You get a very obvious hard on toweling the guy and you blame him for grabbing your hard on? In what kind of sick little self-righteous world do you live in? Grow up!
People like you make me sick!
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55. 2007-05-29 17:53  
Wouldn't it be nice if our posts were more constructive than gays gaybashing other gays...c'mon guys be nice... If you disagree with the "born gay" reasoning then fine post your comments: personal attacks on others for holding a view just makes a lesser person of you & your argument. Lets leave gaybashing to the homophobes shall we?

p.s.#1 I wouldn't want my original post #5 to totally sidetrack the subject of Jon's article here...
p.s.#2 Jon has emailed me saying the "been gay for 8 years..." was "a product of his misguided intellect". He may wish to comment on it in his blog....?
56. 2007-05-29 19:42  
Yeah, play nice boys. And for the guy SHOUTING abuse at Fridae and its editors,and other posters, take a deep breath, count to ten, and don't post your comment until you've slept on it overnight. The truth is that everyone's experience in gay life is unique. Some know very early on, some don't know until their bodies mature, and some don't even know until after they get married. We always demand tolerance -- so let's practice it, as well. I dunno why Jon thinks being gay for 8 years is a product of his misguided intellect either .. but if he's 22 now, that would have made him 14, which seems about right for a nice Chinese boy from a good family
57. 2007-05-29 21:24  
Being gay for 8 years simply means that he has been out and experiencing a gay life and have come to accept or sort of reach a realisation that he's gay for 8 years....

haha... why is everyone so touchy about it and fluff their feathers. It's hilarious.

another way of looking at this is that since he has been out for 8 years... (maybe)the quite observant and analytical kind of person that he is (judging from what he wrote), he lets us know that he does have quite a few years of gay qualification to write an article here on fridae...

or again... simply to get all of you worked up... and all of you are now part of his masterplan

take it with a pinch of salt :)

and oh yes.. he's cute ;)
58. 2007-05-29 22:55  
Why getting so over-reactive on this born-gay thing and start to upsetting people around? The original mean of gay is bright or attractive, cheerful and happy. We should be happy people because we have chosen and live the life that we want.

makethebest, this should be a place that accept all ideas openly. However, it should not be a place that disrespect of others' ideas and create negative emotional burst. If you are angry of something else, please release your anger somewhere else and do not upset people here just because others have differernt point of view.
59. 2007-05-30 01:08  

i think what jonathan is trying to say is that it was 8 years since he first did something with another man. is that so hard to accept?

as for your theory of born gay, yes it might be true for my case too. But i've spoke with many people, many married people, especially those who came from the country. They have no inkling about this gay business. They got married, have 2-5 kids and then one day in a quiet encounter, like watching a dirty dvd with a more dominant gay, they were enlightened.

I chat with another guy before, a japanese in his 50s. He has 5 kids and he always thought he has liking for fat girls. One day, it dawned to him that he liked chubs.

Be more open about how different and varied gay people are. That's all i can tell you.... besides trying to cut down on public outbursts which only showcase what a chauvinistic white asshole you are.
60. 2007-05-30 15:46  
AIYO! Drama queens! Aren't we all hehehe!

I must said I do share the same feeling as "makethebest" regarding statement such as had been gay for some donkey years...hehe

I been thru some dates whereby some of my dates will asked me silly question such as "how long have u been gay, I only been gay for about XXX no of years" and when I said, I guess I am gay all my life, their faces was so shocked hahaha!!!

However, we should be bashing at each other lar...just like some nice sweethearts here...just simply explain that it means had come out for 8 years lor.....
61. 2007-05-31 13:34  
Isn't it obvious that what zackxx meant when he wrote..."WE ARE BORN GAY" is that, to put it in the simplest of terms, when you're gay, you're gay. It's sexual orientation, not a lifestyle choice. To rebutt with the fact that babies are neither born gay or straight, i.e. non-sexual, this putting his theory to the toilet by default, is so so so way off base, and kinda...for lack of a better word, RETARDED.

I am constantly shocked to learn that many in our community in Singapore do not know or understand the difference between sexual orientation and lifestyle choice.

If you choose to be loose and slutty, it's not being of your gay sexual orientation. You just a loose and slutty kinda guy. It's your chosen lifestyle, all the more power to you. Along the same lines, if you chose to be a prude, it's your choice, all the more power to you too.

Senario: Bob is only attracted to guys but has never had sex with a guy before. Bob gets married to a woman and has 2 wonderful kids. Bob is the perfect husband and father. IS BOB...GAY OR STRAIGHT?

Our gay bros and sis from all other the world, the west in particular, are fighting for gay rights. It's not only for themselves, but for us too, for it will benefit us eventually. The least we could do is to get our facts about our orientation right. And also...stop waiting for the person next to you to make the first move. If you want change...it starts with YOU. Stop being so selfish!
62. 2007-05-31 13:42  
oops...just noticed so many typos in my post below. Hope u guys understood though.

ignorance is a serious business. We must stomp out ignorance in our community before we can present our case to the...world. And ignorance from a seemngly intelligent individual...it's the most dangerous of all.
63. 2007-06-01 07:04  
Mr. Zhang,

The fact that you became aroused during this encounter is in no way an indication that this WASN'T molestation. Your arousal simply verifies that your BIOS is functioning properly.

Many, if not most, of the men/boys that are victims of molestation/sexual abuse are aroused by the experience. This often leads to feelings of guilt and that they are somehow responsible and/or complicit in the attack. It is most definitely NOT an indication of desire or attraction under those circumstances, but rather simply an autonomic nervous system response to a physical stimulus.

The abusers/molesters, however, are quick to use this automatic response to justify and rationalize their abhorrent and aberrant behavior, telling themselves that the abused must have liked what they were doing because of the natural and UNCONTROLLABLE response of their victims.

Unless you went into that situation expecting and desiring a sexual encounter, this was unquestionably molestation - regardless of your physical response.

Thank you for being so bold as to put forth this personal experience and initiate this discussion.
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71. 2007-06-03 22:36  
Hey Chinachub. Thank you for your support in your recent post#46 regards the "BORN GAY" issue.

Your right: its disappointing to see fellow gays so very misguided about the whole issue but what's worse is the hypocrisy, intolerance and the racist attitudes displayed towards fellow gays who hold a different view*. It's lame. It's sad.

What's even sadder is that SG's (presumably straight?) Minister Mentor LKY, an octogenarian, has more of a clue of what makes us 'us' than many SG gays in their twenties! What irony too that the SG gay community, and in particular the "Born Gay" lobby, gets tacit support from this totally unforeseen quarter given the homophobic stance of the SG govt.

Empirical evidence exists that genetic and/or hormonal influences in the womb determines sexual orientation (whether one lives a gay lifestyle or not is a totally different issue...). Many in our community do not understand this and what this simple fact can do to champion the gay rights cause, counter religious bigots and anti-gay legislation.

Indeed even if a sector of the gay community personally do not agree that a 'gay gene' exists we should all be in favour of finding ways of making our lives happier instead of the unproductive squabbling we do amongst ourselves.

(*NOTE: Fridae state that such comments are against its 'Terms of Use' but reported posts seem to be ignored by the editors as do gross errors that crop up now and again in Fridae articles.)

Oh and sorry Jon for hi-jacking the topic of this thread!!
72. 2007-06-10 14:44  
Well, "spankthemalenurse", it is quite obvious that it was indeed all your fault. As explained in your own blog, you were and are on a constant lookout for attention, be it from hunks at the spas who will "mistake you for a bottom" (eh?), or the "uncles who used to be well built" in the glorious days of their long bygone youth.

So, you pop a boner, stick it to the old man's back and rub with the movement of the chair, and then you go around and cry "wolf!", you Little Peter of the Singapore saunas and hospitals?

And a well deserved spanking, that you so desperately crave, could have cured those urges of harrassing your patients very easily. So we will recourse to it as a last ditch assistance to you before you lose your job.

Report to my study for punishment at 16:30 sharp. Make sure you don't wear underwear, just a jockstrap that leaves your toosh open for chastisement!

Serbian Disciplinarian in China

73. 2007-06-12 20:32  
mmm...grope by a patient?i would have gone home and washed myself in bleach-i mean come on... just because we are that doesn't mean that we should accept shit like this right?

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