The following is an extract of a report "Many Successful Gay Marriages Share an Open Secret" published by The New York Times on January 28, 2010. Click on the link below to read the article in full.
A study to be released next month is offering a rare glimpse inside gay relationships and reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many. Some gay men and lesbians argue that, as a result, they have stronger, longer-lasting and more honest relationships. And while that may sound counterintuitive, some experts say boundary-challenging gay relationships represent an evolution in marriage — one that might point the way for the survival of the institution.
New research at San Francisco State University reveals just how common open relationships are among gay men and lesbians in the Bay Area. The Gay Couples Study has followed 556 male couples for three years — about 50 percent of those surveyed have sex outside their relationships, with the knowledge and approval of their partners.
That consent is key. “With straight people, it’s called affairs or cheating,” said Colleen Hoff, the study’s principal investigator, “but with gay people it does not have such negative connotations.”
The study also found open gay couples just as happy in their relationships as pairs in sexually exclusive unions, Dr. Hoff said. A different study, published in 1985, concluded that open gay relationships actually lasted longer.
Meanwhile, Dan Savage, a well known gay syndicated columnist and media commentator, who agreed with talkshow host Joy Behar’s on-air comments last week that gay men "don't take monogamy and infidelity the same way that the straight community does" had this to say:
“And as this study will inevitably become grist for the marriage equality debate: remember, kids, you don't have to be monogamous to be married or married to be monogamous.The Clintons? The Sptizers? The Vitters, Ensigns, and Craigs? Not so monogamous, as it turns out, but still married. And half all gay couples? Monogamous and not married. Straight people have been discussing open marriage—open straight marriage—for decades (swinging, ‘wife swapping,’ multiple partners), and never once has anyone suggested that an open straight marriage isn't a ‘real’ marriage or that a heterosexual couple who isn't monogamous shouldn't be allowed to legally marry.
“Marriage is only ‘defined’ by monogamy—and procreation and kids and religion—when bigoted straight people want to deny gay people the right to wed. They reserve for themselves the right to be non-monogamous and married and childless and married and non-religious and married... all while denying the right to wed to monogamous gay couples that do have kids.”
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Reader's Comments
For all those Smug types who claim they are
better than other gays because they are
Monogamous or more like mainstream
ie: straight-acting etc.
get ready for the waste basket -
you're about to become redundant.
There are many in the world who do not want to
live under archaic/outdated religious traditions.
They realise that successful relationships are not
built on empty promises and superstition.
They make decisions together that suit THEIR
relationship - rather than just following the norm
- like sheep.
They base their decisions on REASON and TRUST
rather than insecurity and false piety.
And is it any wonder they have have
great relationships that last.
Honesty, openness, compatibility, communication -
these are the new challenges for the modern relationship.
Monogamy is simply no longer an acceptable substitute.
TIME TO GET REAL :)
disclaimer :
there are many people who are monogamous that have great authentic relationships.
they do not judge others - or assume that monogamy makes their relationship more legitimate, moral or ethical.
they simply find that monogamy works for them.
I have the greatest respect for anyone in a good relationship - however they make it work.
Didn't want to write any more from the last topic, but this really boils me. Good ethics has nothing to do with religion. I am not even religious. As I said in the other thread, I don't need the damn Bible to tell me what is right or wrong . Empty promises and superstition?? One needs a promise to be monogamous?? People should care about being redundant more than good ethics??
Sure you can have two cheaters dating each other, why not!? It will work, move from one relationship to the next , before long, they realise they have wasted their life "playing" and become too old to date. Did your parents even teach you anything about ethics?? Opps , I forgot , whites don't care about ethics. No wonder the world is so fxxked up!
sorry to have stepped on the toes of your
"moral sensibilities".
am really looking forward to reading some
sensible comments on this (from a variety of opinions)
hopefully without the arrogant insults, racism and immaturity.
you are not qualified to call people immature. Look at your attitude towards life. No wonder you are self-employed. Racist?? So damn what?? The "prisoner continent " certainly have a lot to teach about racism, they PROMOTE it!!! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
Transformer?? Is this from my Avator?? That shows how much you know about the Asian culture.
I will be surprised if you have had any meaningful relationship in your life. Keep playing and as I said , before long , you find yourself too old to date and become a pedo going after young asians at old age. Don't forget, you guys do age faster than bananas!
Just want to add, generally, I have no problems with whites. Just the attitude and ethics exhibit by some I have problems with (yes, some asians have that problems too and I would say the same thing to them). Judgmental? Yes, we are all judged by someone; from bosses , friends , parents , siblings, or even strangers.
I don't need anyone to tell me cheating is bad , totally detrimental to any meaningful relationships (gay or straight). Would anyone like to be cheated on or being unethical to??? What goes around, comes around!
While many religions support the idea of monogamy, it doesn't mean it was invented by them, and many aethiests also support monogamy too. Monogramous relationships weren't invented by religious organisations. Are those swans religious?
I think religion should be left out of this, since it wasn't part of the original study anyway. We have two separate articles welded into one. One is appears to be a serious study, the other just an editorial.
I also find Dan Savage's definition of marriage simplistic, and perhaps even naive. Even at the most superficial cultural level, how does it describe polygamous marriages?
I don't think monogamy has no place in the gay world, since sexual relations it can be the way in which a couple choose to express their love exclusively.
Straight or gay, individuals define the own nature of the relationship. Not religions or pious types around them.
or perhaps a can of Mortein? ;)
Was it the references to SMUG types and judgmental people
that offended you?
Your comments about my views being
"arrogant, insulting and immature"
would have a little more credibility if they
were actually based on something -
rather than just an open attack on a person
who's views differ to yours.
Then again - this kind of response is very typical in this debate.
perhaps i should be happy by just being a sex object for those sexually deprived married couple...sigh...I,myself,too want to marry a husband of my dreams without him ever thinking about another man.that sucks...it's like in the movies where a husband is involved in an affair just because his wife is not good enough.hello politicians?
that's just my ideal of a marriage and i think other people have different ideals for themselves.however, i beg the question behind finding another person for fulfilling one's sexual desire(perhaps?). doesn't it bother to some that you're really lacking in pleasing your husband till it makes him bored of you and find another?...(if that would happen to me...I would react like the wives in Hindi movies would...ehehehe)
*ahem* other people, other taste...so it's their privacy...whether they're fucked up or otherwise...let us not be like those "religious" leaders and politicians who impose their nonsense on unfortunates(fortunate people rather?) like us.peace love mercy...MUAHHHH
p.s>not all whites age like a butterfly(coz they die within one day)...it can happen otherwise...sorry...call me a potato beyotch...i don't mind...
"not all whites age like a butterfly"
I assume that is from my comment. It is "age faster than BANANAS", not butterflies (since you use "they" , it should be butterflies then) . It doesn't make sense to use any type of insects, or moths ,or beetles as a metaphor for aging.
sorry if I offended any Smug and Judgmental types
by inferring you might be Smug and Judgmental :)
it's a simple metaphor la.
well, it's true that we all age...perhaps some faster than most of you bananas(here i mean whites)...
but the situation does not apply to all.
and some asians do age faster than whites...
it's the Universe's rule of equilibrium...
Only the childish one would care about being called smug or judgmental. We are all judged by someone: parents, colleagues, friends, bosses, strangers. Welcome to the real world!! You've just graduated from school?
I do not know what kind of freelance work you do but your works will be judged by customers.
Are you sure you are just 21??? Not lying about age??
You have no idea.... some age very slowly....
"and some asians do age faster than whites..."
provided they don't have a tough life
don't smoke or drink ( and I don't mean just alcohol)
...........
this is not the real world...
yea I'm a barbie who lives in his own imaginary world...I'm content with it.
I don't sulk...or whine...i appreciate the adversity i'm going through im my own country...it's a learning process
bout my age...im 21...u meant that i look older? either way i accept it as a compliment...i like being called old
that's so mean of u to use fat metaphors! take it back...hehehe...joking....it's my life philosophy...equilibrium....it is coz i really need 1.my life's a mess.
I know of one Malaysian. She married this white guy for the passport and has admitted that there is no love............
"it's a learning process"
Indeed........ much to learn you still have (from Yoda)
"it's the Universe's rule of equilibrium... "
Is this the same rule they use to distribute fat people on a plane so that the plane can fly straight??
I didn't say you were old, I implied you look older than 21.
well, there is happy and sad endings to a story...i'm not totally a potato queen...i guess i'm like those fuckers out there who view others as sex object...and whites are like a sex object to me as well...so does every other men on this earth...( i do spare the straights one, thank you)
it's sorta like my defense mechanism...weird but true
I've seen studies suggesting that about 75% of hetero married people in my home country (America) have cheated on their spouse at one time or another.
In that light, I'd say a 50% fidelity rate looks pretty good. Score one for the homos.
That said, I can't wait for some neo-con group in the US to take this study and use it for their own twisted ends. You know it'll happen.
Bottom line: Until gay love is as openly accepted as straight love, we're forced into living and loving in the shadowy periphery of society. In my opinion, this pushes us to mistaking physical intimacy (which is instant) for real, emotional intimacy (which takes time), and thus many of us have casual sex, not because we're sluts, but as a substitute for the real sort of intimacy that we cannot openly have and that straight folks take for granted.
So really, until such time as there's a level playing field, I could really care less about studies comparing gay relationships with straight ones.
I have my own OPINIONS on monogamy. I understand why people would fall on either side of the coin and why people feel they need to so adamantly defend their existence or to raise themselves up in a depressed community.
The real argument here in my opinion is whether such an article helps or hinders our community. I feel that suggesting a new formula for marriage is the artillery conservatives need to raise the banner of “protecting marriage.” Although I agree with a lot of the quotes particularly the final one, I’m obviously not overly excited by the report.
But seriously… what’s with all the hate?
I can't tell you how to run your life. If it is what you want , fine by me.
As for myself, I am looking for relationship and I don't based relationship on sex only. I don't even do casual. If others enjoy getting diseases and having to cope with the diseases using expensive "cocktail" drugs everyday for the rest of their life, then go for it.
Remember, even if one is fortunate enough to escape HIV or whatever, gays do have much earlier 'expiration date" than straights in terms of meetings someone meaningful. Time flies.
As I said many many times before , cheating is unethical!!
75%?!!!!!! and 50%?!!!!!
thanks for the info...now who's swinging you may say!
sorry madame...your husband wants to rape me...he likes boys...aww how could i resist...oppss...off topic...sorry
does that mean you do not believe in happy endings? I'm so sorry if I'm being judgmental here but what's up with this kind of uptight attitude in Asian men. No sorry, I rephrase...inherent realism attitudes in Asian men.Realism is cool, and practical,but too much of it can take away your joy.You're fine kamen-sama, just asking this question.
It is personal decision to be monogamous or not. As long as you are happy. Pro-monogamous is old fashioned some say..
well there is nothing bad in loving someone no matter if that's the monogamous way or not. As long both partners are clear and have understanding then its all good.
A good reason for monogamy is the feeling of ownership because most people can not deal with the feeling of jealousy but that is just natural. Love is between 2 not 20 or more. And love is the base in a relationship.
I ve tried both nd for me personally monogamy works just fine. I don't like watching someone else having sex wif my boyfriend.. It is not my cup of tea.. but if you can watch then i can only say enjoy the performance :)
will the other 50% of SF gay couples get to speak? and explain to us why monogamy is so important in their relationships? and if their relationships are weaker, shorter-lasting or less honest because of the monogamy.
really had nothing to do with religion or politics -
but historically this just simply isn't true.
The reason there is so much "emotional-charge"
on an issue like this, is because of the "ethics" and
"morality" attached - BY WHO? -
by SOCIETY - to such issues.
We do not make "independent" decisions to follow
the Status Quo -
and neither are social norms "independent"
from bias and conservative political influence.
People who live differently to the social norms are not
necessarily right either.
But those who question the validity of the Status Quo
and seek an authentic and objective analysis of the issues
are (in my opinion) just a little closer to enlightenment :)
It was sort of weird to make a research about gay relationships in an area where HIV+ people are quite a lot. Most behavioral related studies being done in Bay Area, are usually about the behaviors related to HIV infection. That's why I am suspicious with this research.
I just hope open relationships are not being accepted in South East Asia. Why? Fridae has posted an article about a survey in which the majority of MSM in South East Asia do unprotected sex. Combine that, with the lifestyle of open relationships....................that's very damaging.
Monogamy or open relationships is not just about moral or cultural preferences, there is also a very important health concern that should be considered of choosing a particular lifestyle.
I don't even want to respond any more. Getting tiring. At 21 , you will call it uptight. You don't care about ethics , fine by me , just don't whine when you get screwed by the "unethicals" . Do you know why I brought up the story about this Malaysian woman? She is unethical using this person. There is another Malaysian person I know, he cheated on his wife ...and he claims to be a Christian. Tell me, do they teach ethics at school in Malaysia?. In HK, we do and is in the curriculum or syllabus.
..you are turning it like an epic war as the one between pharmaceutical giants and the poor ppl in third world countries ..lol....
why do we have to bring up this discussion on high lvl and make it more complex when its simple and clear that it is complex enuf to discuss for next 20 years lets say :)
What's wrong with your upbringing, your parents divorced at your early age? Ethics is a Status Quo ,pushed by society and all these crap. You major in social science?? So you enjoy having bad ethics and being treated unethically??
You mean you would like some unethical house-builder building you a house using substandard materials to save cost so that he could have more money in his pocket. This is unethical and is ok with you??
Someone who is HIV+ and have sex with you without telling you, is that ok with you as well??
Or is this your childish way to show others your independence??
If I am in love and have good sex with a guy I can be totally monogamous. My problem was finding another guy that felt that way. Computers have made cheating far too easy.
It is sad two guys can't be happy keeping sex between themselves but I am not going to judge anyone and name call like the guy above me.
Must be nice to be so god damned smug. Must also hard being perfect. We see everyday hypocrites falling off their pedestals.
You DO look old. We have clothes now, no need for fur on the body. You can shave your fur and glue them on your rescinding hairline! Hypocrites are those who don't practice what they preach like John Edward. I do practice what I preach and have never cheated on anyone.
Please don't try to provoke me to show my pics. I do have pics on Fridae and have a far more smoother , toner body than you. I guess you are not a creep , good luck with your porn career!
Rates of infection in SF are actually considered endemic if you believe the numbers of the San Francisco AIDS Foundation (which I do) for the same reason that the abstinence only policy failed.
Off topic ends here.
meant to send you a message instead of a heart since you messaged me first.
I suppose , to a porn star (why is it called a star??) , ethical people would be assholes.
I hope you get screwed by some unethical asshole. BTW, I am not religious nor do I care for the conservative or liberals for that matter.
Why are you on Fridae?? Pass on your diseases to some unsuspecting asians??
Also , don't bother with more PMs, there is always the IGNORE button!
I hope that is a sarcasm......
"Must also hard being perfect."
I don't recall saying anything about being perfect. If you meant being ethical, I didn't know one required any effort to be ethical. Again, I hope you get screwed by someone unethical since it is not important to you.
Time for you to get real, too.
Sharing the same sentiments with chadm252 & torontomq! What's with the sudden rave of this issue & what's with the hatin'?!
so it's okay to sleep with strangers as long as both agree? so its okay to bring guys back home, fuck them, and its okay too? we can still call that a "MARRIAGE". RIGHT.
bullshit. monogamy is regarded as an ideal/aspiration in straight marriage. just because some stray dsn't mean its the norm, or its right. that's why hillary clinton went mad after bill's affair - mind u its just a blowjob. that's why society censures tiger woods for his multiple sex scandals.
if its gay people? its normal. guess why? cuz gay people adhere to looser standards. "we agreed. it works for us to be in open r/s". come on, imagine your dad coming home to your mom and telling her hey i fucked this beautiful waitress today so fucking awesome!
seriously, wtf?
p/s: the most chilling thing is how everyone seems to be okay with it, socialising future gay teenagers into thinking sleeping around,even if with strangers/in orgies/outside of their r/s, is alright. gross.
BTW, I had a very short haircut and I have a FULL head of hair, NWT you are the type that give gay people a bad name.
You are bitter, a troll and a waste of skin. Now go take your hate out on someone who gives a shit because I don't.
I do believe in monogamy. My first bf I had for 7 years and never cheated on him.
So go back and learn how to read you internet troll.
"NWT is just bitter because he was cheated on at some point. Otherwise he wouldn't be so hateful. "
You HAVE rescinding hairline and is not because you cut it short. A hairline is not in M shape, that is male pattern baldness! To be honest, it doesn't really matter, Darth Vader's helmet and mask suit you best.
My dear pornstar, if you know how to read Chinese on my profile, you would know I have never been cheated by anyone. I guess porn school does not teach you any linguistic skill.
Hateful?? Why is having ethics hateful??
I don't understand your substandard English. Troll?? Wow, your vocabulary is really vast , lumpenproletariat (use a dictionary if you don't know what it means)!!
At least I speak several languages. What do you speak?? " harder harder , give me more ?? "
I don't care if you agree with me or not. That is not the point, don't start a war calling people name first or people will start a war with you!!! If you are rude, people will treat you the same.
You talk like that in HK, you will probably end up as part of Dim Sum. As Jet Li puts it "you would be dead in HK".
Did She ever told me to be straight, steadfast, "holy", whatever it is? Nope...I'm not a prophet on this matter.
So why the fuss on people like me, who enjoys life and sex? I do it safely and I'm definitely not promoting promiscuity...the young generation out there are better than me. I'm just promoting life's enjoyment. The saying enjoy now suffer later does not always work.
What's ethical to me is lying to your partner and using people for your own sake.
In Malaysia, we are taught to be polite,considerate,and helpful to each other,even with some major issues dealt recently...
To me...that's ethical enough.
Please no god , and crap. If he or she exists , (s)he is not doing a very good job.
Polite , considerate , anything but ethics huh??? Cheating is un-ethical , period.
Anyway, I hate to argue with another asian. You think what you want.
Someone mentioned "polygamy" being illegal. Actually in Thailand and Laos, to name a few, registered "minor" wives (not husbands yet) are allowed under the legal terms of "family law". In Laos, if the
"major wife" agrees to register a "minor wife" and the family resources/money is sufficient, you can register a "minor wife" legally.
Thai law has a similar provision but I don't recall the details. That one involves the rights of children of a minor wife as well. Help?
i quit as well...too much of uncles...i feel outnumbered
You are 50?? Try exp (4.094) (high school mathematics ,hope you know). Seriously, do some trimming on the rest of the body, a "forest fire" can be started on your body without any good reason and you know how hot LA can get.
BTW, a good hairline is like that one on Jay Leno. Just say yours is between Jay's and Kevin's. You hair kind of reminds me of the airport runway, but you are doing better than another cheater, David Letterman.
As for your face, I don't know, you need to ask Joseph Merrick (yes, is Joseph , not John) for advice.
Monogamy is definitely a personal issue and many of us had the experience of cheated on. Think its been mixed in to marriage basically to put a divide in the above argument.
As for HIV in SF, open relationship is not a cause of an increase in infection. It is more due to unsafe sex combined with use of drugs. Reminds the time when society tried to combat unwanted teen pregnancy with abstinence, sex is not the only issue...its the responsibility that comes with it.
Peace
Newton's third law of motion:
Whenever a first body exerts a force on a second body, the second body exerts the same force in opposite direction on the first body.
Chinese version:
Whenever a first body exerts a force on a second body, the second body exerts a much GREATER force in opposite direction on the first body.
Disagree with them and watch the venom and hatred flow.
So if we use the common "left and right" titles, my general experience is that I experience more anger, hatred and venom from the "left" than I do from the "right", despite the claims from the "left" that they are open and accepting and that the "right" are closed minded and full of anger and rage.
Disagree with them and watch the venom and hatred flow.
So if we use the common "left and right" titles, my general experience is that I experience more anger, hatred and venom from the "left" than I do from the "right", despite the claims from the "left" that they are open and accepting and that the "right" are closed minded and full of anger and rage.
Mine is only a temporary account for the forum. Please also see an optometrist.
He hates caucasians that is obvious, yet he posts no pics so we can't see what he looks like to crtique his appearance.
My grandmother used to say, never argue with an idiot. It only upsets you and antagonizes the idiot.
why can't I find any barbies here? I mean...we're fun...
What the fuck is your problem? You sound like this angry kid who had just lost all of his lego blocks.
Seriously? Does the ability to spell & understand a vast amount of vocabulary, or "lumpenproletariat", make you any more morally superior? Or make you any more intelligent than any of us here?
Well if that's what you think, that's indeed what ONLY YOU would think, Mr. Small Minded.
If what you think is factual, fuck, I think I'll be the dumbest ass on this planet, & everyone would be intelligent.
Because your intelligence is not defined by what you know, or how vast your vocabulary is, but with your ABILITY TO THINK (rationally), kiddo.
Jeez.
Everyone? what makes you think everyone is on your side?? Who is rude to whom first is pretty evident. Just read the whole conversation and we will know who the provocateur is.
Again, trying to provoke me into submitting my pictures just does not work.
Antagonizes and idiot must be big words to you. I guess so is the phase "Androgenic Alopecia"
Please stop bringing your grandmother into the conversation. I wonder how she felt ( I assume she had passed away since you used "used to" ) about your "second career" or is it the first??
ok, you start with me first kiddo. I am a kid like you?? Funny! Obviously , you are not too perceptive. I have nothing to say to a 18 yo, not a pedo. Sorry to say ,in your case, what is the point to have eyes??
Please don't talk until your bracelet is off.
Why don't you read the whole conversation before taking side?
"ABILITY TO THINK (rationally), kiddo."
and the real kiddo , which part of the conservation you found not rational, you do know what national means right?
"Damn kid , why don't you shut the hell up , telling me I am a kid when you are playing your hemster??
Get a face and stop talking until your bracelet is off!!
Blacklisted."
Well, if you are such an oh so domineering adult, TALK IT OUT HERE LIKE ONE.
And crap people! If you got a cute hamster, you're blacklisted as a kid!
that is downright mean to mock about a person's granma.you're attacking personally.how ethical that is...wow...that is very weird since we have a glorious knight of ethics...funny world funny world
I did not mock his grandmother. I said how she would feel about his "second career".
Actually , that is not ethics, that is manner!
yes , I really need anyone to be on my side, only the childish one would think as such. I am so hurt you are not on my side, should I attend counselling??
I know you have difficulty shutting your mouth, just look at your pictures but you shut your eyes very well.
Whatever you say. I am just a practitioner of monogamy, what do I know about good ethics like that Malaysian woman who married for immigration and that Malaysian guy who cheated on his wife?
What happened to all your Asian pride you threw against DA92007?
Well I take my small Asian eyes with great stride mind you!
Try a littler harder! =)
Lokies, seriously don’t even bother. You represent the new face of the LGBT and N-W-T represents a generation mired down in their own hate. Some people will just live and die with their issues.
If you call that pride , sure why not. I have no problems with small eyes actually. "Littler harder "??? What's wrong with "try a little harder??"
I didn't throw any asian pride at the pornstar. It is only your interpretation and stop quoting what you think it might mean.
Vitriol is supposed to be a big word too??
Try Polioencephalitis , which you might have. My Eurasian Mousaka with hair looking like laxano gemista .
Please try spelling word such as Aluminium properly before attempting slightly more advanced word.
BTW, I actually ignored you the first time.
Again, you start being rude first, not me, damn kid!
Never mind, this is clearly a game to you, so guess what, I'd rather not play - you win haha...
Whatever you say , it is your food and I hope you know how to cook them!
What have you done to help anyone? Nothing, i'm sure. Except come on here with no pic you coward and attack everyone.
I do think monogamy works for some. Your rants on here are quite annoying. You just insult at every turn.
Your jabs at my age don't bother me one bit, they roll off my back like water on a duck's ass. I am happy with my age. As for my body hair lots of guys like it some don't I don't really care.
Your personality is the biggest detriment I see in your life. If you have a partner, better check on him, he may be cruising the ads now looking for someone more loving than you.
Almost miss your comment.
If I am the idiot, that makes you an Amoeba?? Seriously , is there a more advanced word than idiot all the time?? Or you left your dictionary with the brain in the incubator?
Why did you write "I am not a monkey" as caption of one of your photos?? People call you that??
I have done more than you could imagine. Please stop trying to poke for my information with your futile attempts.
I wish you were inventing cure for Alzheimer's than just merely looking after them. I guess being a doctor in real life is more difficult than playing one in porn. I suppose those nurses in such places like Japan or HK are nothing compared with your weekend nursing activities. There must be a reward for such 2-year weekend dedication.
"Your jabs at my age don't bother me one bit, they roll off my back like water on a duck's ass. "
I guess it is just the same with knowledge, it just rolls off your back with no chance of staying.
Stop talking about personality (yahoo, you actually used a 4-syllable word) when you are the provocateur. You must have a crystal ball somewhere to know about people's life so quickly, just too bad it is just not in high accuracy. Jabs?? Can you at least use the word insult?? If it is a flaw, I do fire back when people fire at me first! If you find me annoying, you should look into the mirror. I don't attack everyone , just those who attacked me first. This says so much about your observation and you say you are a nurse?? The same kind of nurse as Stephen King's Annie Wilkes??
Don't want to waste more time on this, won't be reading any more comments, or react to them. hibernate away!!
well he gets a bit emotional on moments but in general i do really like the way he thinks ..
he never insulted anyone b4 being insulted by someone and he is all the time telling you that he actually is having discussion and is not hating anyone.. he is not hating he is defending his point of view :) dearly ..so you should read carefully and learn how to properly make a discussion :)
let me see if I have this correct :
1. If I don't like someone's opinion - I should make a
weak point and support it with a personal attack on the
person I disagree with.
2. I should only ever "half-read" anyone's comments
so it makes it easier for me to argue - rather than
attempt to make progress on an issue and work towards
a consensus.
3. If I make nasty comments about people's hair,
age, race, education, ethics etc.
that makes my argument more logical and proves that
I am right.
Hmm..
In my previous experience with debates the rules were
a little different to the ones being applied here.
== Just a suggestion ....
How about we talk openly about the issue without
making personal attacks.
Who knows - we might actually LEARN
something from each other :)
At the risk of sounding old fashioned, naive or passe; personally, why does one want to commit when one still still wants to play the filed?
Are gay couples that better at separating lust and love than straight couples? Like everything else, it's just a matter of choice - whether
you want to listen to your heart or your head.
In moments of 'weakness' or when convenience suits oneself, more often than not, one listens to what's between the legs than what's between the ears.
Open relationship is a double-edged
What starts off as an experimental casual encounter may develop into something more serious that could threaten the stability of an existing relationship.
A close friend told me that all relationships; straight of gay, eventually will become or have to become open. Whether it will survive or not is another question but it will never be the same.
I can understand that variety is the spice of life and that one can be bored with the same 'dish' after familiarity seems into a relationship. On a more positive note, this may be the time to 'open' a relationship then?
At the end of the day, is it a lovely kind of lust or a lusty kind of love that we are seeking? Ideally, I suppose, it's both for a couple in a relationship. But is it that easy to separate one from the other?
- still wants to play the "field"
- "seeps" into a relationship
Was it the references to SMUG types and judgmental people
that offended you?
Your comments about my views being
"arrogant, insulting and immature"
would have a little more credibility if they
were actually based on something -
rather than just an open attack on a person
who's views differ to yours"
Read closer. My message was directed at at your COMMENT...not YOU. You seem to imply that I'm not allowed to be offended by your comments if i don't agree with you, judging by the above.
Did you even go further to read my comments on the article? I believe I backed up my view, and in my mind, there was some agreement with your on POV.
Chill out.
In itself its like the beginning of a dinner table conversation with so much more to explore on the topic :D
Thanks
However having said that, monogamy is a choice that needs to be jointly made by both partners, and respected by others.
If you are one who cannot be monogamous, then be honest to yourself and to others. Honesty is the best policy.
Even straight people cheat , they just don't talk about it. If a gay couple have sex with someone other than they partner but still tell they partner before hand to get consent. Then i see why not , they should be chastise for been honest about it. It better than finding out later that they cheated on you. Sure, everyone want fidelity but is it possible. Perhaps, but marriage is more than monogamy. It about been honest,sincere, care , communication and lastly love and respect.
Sure it is a legal way to have sex and getting tax benefit as well. In the olden days, this is the only way to even get into a bed.
Beside it been proven that nature studies , that monogamy is mutually exclusive to homo sapient where as most mammals do have multi partners. The reason for this is simply survivor as they more you procreate the more chance of you passing on your seed and genetic trait to the next generation and therefore you survive.
Not that that apply to us, two guy can't have kids unless we adopt which also doesn't allowed gay ppl to adopt in certain country. We can always find a surrogate mother.
Anyway, It is all about choice and we should condemn other for they choices as we aren't any better. No one is a saint. I tend to leave the judging to God. Those we do not sin can cast the first stone.
I mean the so called straight people fuck around as much, infact alot on the down low!
This is ridiculous branding on monogamy as if you know the world will end with it. And putting a swan as an example? hello we are not animals, or we were but evolved, i think the dolphin is a better example if the author may care to do more research rather then a cut and paste from the many pages after a scroll at the personals section?
I suggest more articles about being human, being kind to each other, or on how to sustain your health, your life rather then silly findings by the New York Times, as if they are the only source of information for Asia.
Dear Editor, please read more before you post something silly like this and call it news.
What I do find interesting about this "research" is how it could perhaps undermine/weaken the fight for gay marriage.
I'm not too bothered if other guys are into non-monogamy (so long as it's always safe) but I am naturally (and not religiously or dogmatically or whatever) pro-monogamy. Don't ask me why because I'm an atheist, liberal thinker and I just don't know. I'm just naturally wired that way.
It seems to me much less complicated to give your time, love and energy to just one guy. If you give it to others, outside of your relationship, it seems to me that your relationship will suffer as a result. Equal and opposite reactions: every bit of sexual energy you give outside of your relationship takes away from the potential energy your own relationship could have. Or, put another way, if you would rather put your own sexual pleasure ahead of your relationship's potential, then are you truly even in a relationship? (one handy definition of love I once heard: it's when you care about someone else more than you care about yourself)
And, besides, why choose a complicated life? I want to be relaxed and happy at home. I don't want to live in an environment in which my partner or I nurse secret jealousies, regardless of what agreements might have been made. And also, let's not forget third parties. What if you sleep with someone outside of your relationship with whom you fall in love? Or what if he's already in a relationship and falls in love with you? You could break his heart, his partner's heart, your own partner's heart, or your own heart...
So why make it complicated? Happiness and companionship last longer than an orgasm...
now i can dream again...
and two thumbs up for uncomplicated life.
Before computers cheating was quite a bit more difficult. It takes a lot of energy running around behind your partners back. Mentally and physically. I am quite happy having sex with just one person.
If a couple can play around and last 10 years good for them but I don't want to end up in one of those.
stop judging, and stop judging others who judge.
btw hey people, understand your anger (its a divisive topic) but lets stray off personal insults yarh? intellectual discourse is valued.
1) i dun think monogamy is too much to ask for. come on — even penguins are monogamous – for their entire lives!
why get married otherwise?
if i ever were to enter into an open r/s (which i wont), it would be to facilitate my seeking of a better, more stable candidate for a non-open relationship – which goes against the idea of forever.
2) on the idea of how marriage is fundamentally a social construct ie “anything goes”. everything is a social construct, including ideals, dignity, and honor, but doesn’t mean they are not worth fighting for.
3) on the utilitarian crap about how needs are not met, and may be better served by other parties. so if you can’t speak to your partner? go online to talk to some other guys. if you are not aroused by ur husband? get a male prostitute. what else? what other needs are there that can be outsourced readily, eliminating the need for parties to put in effort to salvage the r/s, in the name of utilitarianism?
get a divorce please. seriously, don’t call the act of staying together in a house a ‘marriage’. it’s not. it desecrates the term.
open relationship = cheating? not for most cases (some are with knowledge & consent of their partners)
a couple invite a 3rd person in their bedroom = cheating? or is this open relationship? depends how you define open relationship...
2 couples swap partners, with mutual consent = cheating?
and the list goes on.... try labelling all of that :)
My relationship is MY relationship, it is how i / we define it and it can be unique for the couple... love and ethics are irrelevent!!!
Good luck guys!
The moralist's on both sides of a debate
(including this one), often fail to realise that
the world does not strictly operate -
according to their own personal view.
While monogamy works for some -
it does not work for others.
While monogamy represents virtue and other value
to some -
Non-monogamy is equally virtuous and valuable to another.
Just because you don't like something
doesn't make it "bad" or "wrong".
It's just wrong for you - that's all.
I'd like to address another point too, and that's to do with the idea that monogamy is "old-fashioned" or "out of date" compared to non-monogamy. It seems to me that the exact reverse is true.
Before modern civilization, it was possible to have all the sex with whoever you desired through sheer force of will or strength. If anyone dared to compete with you, then all you needed was the strength to smash their skull.
I imagine that was enjoyable for anyone who wanted it and who was physically strong enough to get it.
I believe it's fortunate that our societies have generally evolved and that we now have laws and standards to protect ourselves from such consequences of our animal past.
Therefore, I see monogamy as more advanced than the traditional or old-fashioned non-monogamy. I think it shows maturity to put the needs of your partner or your relationship before your own desires. Speaking for myself, I find selfishness less attractive than selflessness.
As I previously stated, I'm actually not too bothered if other guys are into non-monogamy (so long as it's always safe). Besides, I understand that it's animal nature to always want more for oneself...
From what I can understand, a lot of guys on this comment thread equate either physical and/or emotional monogamy with commitment to the relationship.
I think the study itself is misleading.
I agree with this assessment by chadm252:
"Bottom line: Until gay love is as openly accepted as straight love, we're forced into living and loving in the shadowy periphery of society. In my opinion, this pushes us to mistaking physical intimacy (which is instant) for real, emotional intimacy (which takes time), and thus many of us have casual sex, not because we're sluts, but as a substitute for the real sort of intimacy that we cannot openly have and that straight folks take for granted."
But unlike chadm252, I do care. When it appears in a mainstream publication like The New York Times, as opposed to a gay publication, it influences public opinion about the gay community. For better or worse, it reinforces certain stereotypes, and subsequently fuels either more tolerance and/or intolerance from within and outside the gay community about the image of the typical gay person we all carry.
Personally, I believe relationships come in all forms. Monogamy deals with issues of sexuality and commitment. The reasons why we want to have sex with multiple partners are varied. And they have to do with how we view our own personal sexuality within the bigger framework of gay sexuality. Are we jaded with partners who don't call back after a one night stand and so want to prove a point that we can? Or do we think that having more partners expand our sexual wealth; spreading the love so to speak? Or maybe it's just because having sex with one partner over a period of time kinda loses its appeal?
I don't think age and maturity has anything to do with it. If anything, the pull towards promiscuity increases as we grow older. We may just lack the will to go through with it. LOL.
I used to think that gay relationships essentially don't work. Even open ones. But I've been proven wrong on both counts. And although I appreciate the unquantifiable value of monogamy, sometimes it gets in the way of a partner wanting to be honest.
In the end, it really depends on the couples themselves. Monogamy works for some. And for others, it doesn't. It's really quite simple.
What works best, I think, is honesty. If you're honest about what you want, be it monogamy or non-monogamy, say it to your partner. And try to be clear to yourself why you want when you want. Just so you don't hurt your partners' feelings. All of us have feelings, even if we deny them. None of us want to be just another fuck.
Respect.
I agree that comment #117 is worded well and gives an intelligent view of a complex issue known as sexuality.
Kudos to those that stay on-topic. And compassion for those that can't (including me since I am not addressing the topic), but especially towards those individuals that wield anger and arrogance towards others' opinions.
People continue to live and die around the world due to controllable and uncontrollable circumstances. Do you really think your or my opinion on monogamy makes a meaningful difference? Maybe so, but only to me and the person(s) with whom I'm having intimate contact. So, please play nice or please don't play at all.
Incidentally, non-monogamy is not unique to San Francisco gay men. Many traditional Tibetans were polyandrous (one woman with two 'husbands,' often both of them were brothers). There have been tribal peoples where matriarchs had several male partners for reproductive purposes, but who also had a primary woman to love and as a wife to inherit the matriarch's property...
Love ultimately has little to do with monogamy. This does not mean that there aren't loving monogamous relationships, but it DOES certainly mean that we over-conflate Love with Monogamy. Clearly there are many of supposedly monogamous relationships which are based on possessiveness, lies, unspoken resentment, and a general lack of imagination, as evidenced by the many marital complaints in the world and the high rates of divorce in the industrialised world.
I am supportive of relationships which are based on love and mutual respect for each other's individuality. For some people, this means monogamy, and for others this means non-monogamy, or open relationships, or poly-amory.
Self-righteousness and defensiveness, either by monogamists or non-monogamists or polyamorists, is ultimately detrimental to Love, and most certainly a mark of disrespect of each other's lives. Everybody experiences relationships differently, and it would be in our colllective favour to value the many wonderful ways that people have expressed their love for each other.
while many of us struggle to clarify our thoughts
on such complex and emotive topics -
it is great to get some researched knowledge on the issue.
so much misunderstanding and prejudice is based on
a lack of knowledge.
but the mere fact that so many people have debated this
news strand - is testament to the willingness of many gay men
to challenge and question - rather than just accept
what they are told to believe.
in a good debate there are rules -
but in a great debate there are no rules :)
for all those in this debate who have (like myself)
made comments that were sincere but inflammatory
and for all those who have contributed wise words
- everyone has made a valuable contribution
- and in this sense we have done this as a united group
(despite our different views).
How's this terminology for thought: :))
marriage..... a totally monogamous and loving heterosexual union for life between a man and a woman (usually with religious connotations) that is legally binding.
Garriage...... a totally monogamous and loving homosexual union for life between two men (or two women) that is legally binding.
mirrrage........ a non-monogamous union between any two "married" human beings.
So, Jack and Jane got married,
Bob and Nate got garried, as did June and Jill,
and Pat and Sam got divorced...
:P have a great weekend :)
i think the artical should be called "50% of gay male roomates in San Francisco Bay Area have sexual relationship with some kind of emotional attachment".
I have seen many relationship gone thru stages and phase where people started off as closed relationship, and then open and finally closed again...
I seen people whom are in open relationship all right from the beginning as they see the sexual part of the relationship as something that should not spoil the big picture of what both of them have which is a companionship and friendship which you hold no reserved to each other...But still the risk is there, like what if one of them violated the rule of not falling in love with a fling? We are all human being. If emotion is such an easy thing to be tamed, then we all all perhaps god like. So there is always a risk...and personally, i will not take that risk and if my bf ever wanted an open relationship, i will only take it that he don't love me as a lover anymore and rather break the bond and gone back becoming friend...
So my point is, what is the best way of surviving a relationship you have put together with this man for years? If the occasion rise, what will you do? My stand is total devotion cause i know i am the kinda person whom put 100% into the person i loved, but can he match it up?
Basically closed or open, each to its own choice...When you met someone whom believe in monogamous, as much as you do, then great match; if you met someone whom are unwilling to settle with one body, and you are too, great, another good match. But if one is pro monogamous and another one is someone whom like open relationship, then we have a problem here, no matter how deep the love is... So you have to communicate the preference of what you want this relationship to go before you even go into one. And that is one hard question you have to ask yourself too...Cause some one whom might started of thinking they can be monogamous, may change their idea of relationship later...we are all human...and we are a big uncertainty that change from time to time like it or not.
I just hope that we have a guide to tell us the idea of a good gay relationship and set the tone for many of us whom are still clueless...
I know i am...
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